I would like to have it acknowledged that not every new rider is a new motorist. I bought my first bike later in life and, although I had no experience on a motorcycle, I certainly had many years of safe driving under my belt. I started on a 650 V-Star. I won't argue with you about how tall or how steep the learning curve seemed for me, because I feel that the same learning curve will not be attacked in the same way by different individuals. What I do know is that I had out-grown that mid-sized cruiser in about six weeks (and about 4000 kms). I bought the bike without having a learners' licence. I passed my road test about three weeks later. I am confident that I could not have progressed as far as I did in my skill level if I had not possessed the maturity and the skills of seasoned motorist. We have to keep in mind that the reason new drivers' are on a graduated licensing program is because they have had limited experiences (less time behind a wheel, fewer situations encountered, less variety of road experiences). A new motorcyclist may just have limited experience with that particular type of machinery.

Having said that, my opinion on graduated licensing may not be what you would expect. I would fully support it. And if that was the system that had been in place when I got my licence, then I would have gladly gone through all the steps because I really wanted my full endorsement. I do not think that engine displacement is the criterium that should be used, however. There are a few reasons: the difference between sport bikes & cruisers (& enduros, etc) plus the difference in driving experiences between older and younger drivers are the two most prominent reasons. Finally, even though I did not take the safety course, I would like to still take it some day. It should be mandatory for new motorcyclist.

And by the way . . .in regards to some other comments that I read in this thread - Just because I wasn't born into a family of bikers and just because I bought my first bike after I was in my 20's does not make me a poser or a middle-aged, baby boomer wannabe. One of the things that I love about biking is the camaraderie and accepting attitude of so many other bikers that I meet. 78oldwing needs to get off of his high horse and stop thinking that he is any better than the rest of us. New comers or old hands - I am sure that most of us ride a bike for the same reasons.

Though I'm in favour of new (or experienced) riders completing a Motorcycle Safety Course, I would like to remind this forum that many of us live 200 or more kilometers from even a small city, such as Swift Current and have not access to such courses.

Something significant would need to be done to make the courses much more widely available. Rural drivers/riders already have to travel large distances to write and drive the for the license tests, and these are only a portion of a day. Safety courses typically take a number of days or evening etc.

intruder wrote:

QUOTE:
Though I'm in favour of new (or experienced) riders completing a Motorcycle Safety Course, I would like to remind this forum that many of us live 200 or more kilometers from even a small city, such as Swift Current and have not access to such courses.

Something significant would need to be done to make the courses much more widely available. Rural drivers/riders already have to travel large distances to write and drive the for the license tests, and these are only a portion of a day. Safety courses typically take a number of days or evening etc.

Rural people shouldn't have motorcycles...they should stick to driving tractors..

I knew this one guy who lived out in the middle of nowhere...guy would ride his chopper in the snow...do you REALLY think someone like that should have a license??

Hmmm I saw 3 sport bikes riding all last winter here in Saskatoon.
One Friday night we went into the Fox and Hound... it was -35 without the windchill (and there sure was one)and here is this sport bike parked right in front of the doors. What a sight.

A while back I read the hurt report, a motorcycle accident fact sheet of sorts done up by the mericans.

quote:
20. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly overrepresented in
accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly underrepresented.
Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female
motorcycles riders are significantly overrepresented in the accident data.
/quote

Here is one that really took my attention

quote:
More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience
on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years.
Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident
data.
/quote

This IS an American report, but I wonder if the figures from Canada wouldn't bear this one out?

How did driving a car prepare you for riding that V-Star Pharbus?
And in what way did you out grow the bike?

I rode an 81 Virago 750 for years and 30,000km and it always had enough to make me smile if I got bored. (RIP due to an aggressive cage nut-case)
I rode an 84 550 Night Hawk for a couple of years and it was potent. Nice power band.
early 80's 125 Yamaha street bike... wish I still had that one *sigh*

Well, this topic has heated up and so it should. Cagers and riders alike all share the same roads and both need to be equally competent and equally aware of the other if we are all to survive on both urban and rural roads.

I note a comment by Pharbus earlier about my "high horse".

Pharbus wrote:

QUOTE:
78oldwing needs to get off of his high horse and stop thinking that he is any better than the rest of us. New comers or old hands - I am sure that most of us ride a bike for the same reasons.

True, I have been a rider (and a driver) for a long time. It is true also that I have not always been a responsible rider (or driver). Fortunately, I survived a few incidents and gained an artificial knee and some limited wisdom in the process.

New drivers or riders share a couple of things. A lack of skill, a lack of experience, and an intangible that for lack of a better term, I will call wisdom. It is a package that cannot be separated.

Sure, there is a learning curve, and a steep one at that, when you first ride a bike of any size. Whether you have been a responsible driver for decades or not, riding a bike in traffic is a different beast.

In my opinion, training courses are probably the best means to get us up to an acceptable skill level to take to the roads. Experience, however, can't be taught. It can only come with miles/kms in the saddle. As for wisdom, well wisdom is just something that comes with time and both of the above.

I don't ride a "high horse". I just ride with the knowledge that comes from many years of close calls, a month in the hospital, memories of friends lost, and tens of thousands of miles/kms of mostly having fun on my bikes.

I recognize that my skills drop off over the winter and over the years so I take a refresher course every few years (you meet a lot of great folks who are just starting to ride) and I assist at an annual "Ride Captain" course for group riders.

While I don't ride a high horse, the ride is pretty good from where I sit. I hope to be lucky enough to live to ride a long time. (BTW, at just under 5'8" tall, all horses look pretty tall to me)

A graduated license program would be a positive thing for new riders of any age. In the U.K. they have provisions for older riders to take a short-cut to an unlimited license, but the requirement for formal training and testing remains.

I completely support some form of graduated licensing for motorcyclists across the nation. Riding or driving is not anyone's constitutional right - it is a privilege that carries a responsibility to others. Make the costs a tax deduction. Reduce insurance rates for licensed riders who take refresher training/safety programs. Anyone who can't pass a reasonable training and testing program really shouldn't be on the roads where they would present a danger to themselves and others.

That's my last word on the subject. Go ahead guys - tear into me.

In response to Daniel_r's question, the 650 was great for around town. I started feeling that I wanted more from my bike after I made a few highway trips. I will be the first to admit that I can be a little heavy on the throttle, so at highway speeds I found the 650 lacked power for passing. Maybe my Yamaha was just poorly tuned, but 120 kpm was asking a lot from it. Bringing it up to 140 to get past a big rig was, at times, nearly impossible. Throw in a head wind and I was really screwed. It didn't help that most of my friends were riding larger bikes that easily loped along at 130. I started seriously shopping for a larger bike after a windy, rainy trip up to the lake with a passenger and camping gear loading me down. Getting out of the city is an essential part of my relationship with my bike, so I am still looking at moving up. Full touring mode is my plan for the not too distant future.

78oldwing,

I apologize that my earlier posting became a personal attack upon you. I was in no way trying to disrespect nor disregard your years of experience as a motorcyclist. Maybe I read your posting with a tone that was not intended by you. I do, however, take offense to comments that imply a new rider, who hasn't been wrenching on a dirt bike since he (or she) was in his early teens, must automatically be classified as a poser. I also think that it is very wrong to suggest that any person that buys their first bike in their adulthood is simply a baby boomer that has nothing else to do with their scads of cash. I may be within the proper age range, but I am not an independently wealthy boomer. I am more realistically part of the disoriented Gen-X. For me, purchasing a bike came when I thought that I could justify owning a vehicle that I could not use year-round. I have always loved motorcycles, but my circle of friends from my youthful days were not riders. Now, most of my close friends are on two wheels. Neither am I the same immature idiot that I was in my early 20's. If I had owned a bike when I was 18, I would have probably wrapped it (and myself) around a telephone pole before I reached 19.

Do not try to deny my legitimacy as a rider just because I haven't been on a bike for 40 years.

Pharbus

Pharbus,

I promised myself I would end my posts but I guess this will have to be my last post #2.

No offense was intended to you. I guess I was having an off day and my choice of language was a bit inflammatory. Real riders are real riders; no matter what they ride, how old they are, how long they have ridden, or anything else for that matter. The only important thing is that they ride. Safely.

I'll just sit back and watch the discussion over graduated licensing evolve and not clutter up this topic any more.

Fill - Ride - Repeat

Back to the topic of this thread. Driving a car prepared me to be a better motorcylist because of the knowledge gained by experience. Watching for and anticipating the actions of other drivers. Reading road signs. Keeping my attention well ahead of me down the road. Reacting to emergency situations - when to brake and when to give it gas. Recognizing the feel of a vehicle when it has just started to lose traction and wants to begin sliding.

Yes, I had to learn how to drive a bike, but I didn't have to learn much about being on the road - city or highway. Certainly, things like lane position, riding in groups, how a bike reacts under heavy braking, and many other things are part of the learning curve of riding a motorcycle. But I do not need to be retrained to know that it is smart to look both ways when approaching an intersection even when I have a green light. I am awaware of the subtle, incomplete shoulder check that might indicate a lane change is about to happen in front of me. These kinds of things are independent of what type of vehicle you are in (or on).

Therefore, I still see a significant difference between a 16 year old trying to get his motorcycle endorsement and an older motorist looking to add an M to his driver's licence. Often, people choose to get their point across by citing the extreme cases. Yes, a 16 year old with only a written learners exam could go out and buy a Hyabusa or ZX-14, but how many really do? Placing restrictions on displacement does not take into account the difference between a new race replica and an old cruiser. Using a calendar to measure one's experience is problematic because someone might only ride a couple of thousand kilometers in their first year while someone else might rack up 10,000 kms. Make me take a safety course and then test me on my abilities. But then, as was mentioned, what about people that are not near an urban centre??

I am not positive about Swift Current in particular but I do know that the safety course has gone mobile (from town to town kind of thing) in the past.

I would assume (and I will pose the question on Tuesday) that this would occur more frequently or at least to many more smaller centers if the course became mandatory.

78oldwing suggested a poll on the matter and I thought it was a grand idea. Look at the top left of the site to place your vote now.

trapper_canada wrote:

QUOTE:



Rural people shouldn't have motorcycles...they should stick to driving tractors..

I knew this one guy who lived out in the middle of nowhere...guy would ride his chopper in the snow...do you REALLY think someone like that should have a license??

No, someone like that should NOT have a license. And further, I don't think rural riders should even require a license. Who's gonna know? We don't even have police to check.

Graduated licenses are a terrible idea and HP or displacement restrictions are even worse.
The last thing we need are less motorcyclists which making a new rider buy more than one bike is guaranteed to do. I can't believe that there are actual motorcyclists in favour of this crap!
My first bike was a Honda 919 and I started with a learners ,got my full liscence and have not had a single ticket or accident in the 6 years I have been riding. The idea that other motorcyclists would support the idea that I would have to buy a crappy little bike that is not capable of being driven safely on our highways before I could actually get the bike I want is ridiculous.

Adults should have the right to make their own decisions and even their own mistakes. Unlike cars if someone drives a bike irresponsibly chances are the only person they hurt is themselves. I don't want to live in a nannystate that forces me to jump through a bunch of hoops to do something I love and hurts no one else.


I have a feeling that a lot of people here who are for graduated licenses would feel a lot different if they did not have theirs already. It is easy to force things on others when you don't have to go through it yourself. If we don't bring in as many new riders as possible it will be easy for them to reduce our rights even further especially if we let them get away with this divide and conquer tactics. Soon we could be like Quebec where motorcyclists are on the hook for every accident they are involved in even though cars are responsible for most of them.