I have been asked to represent SMA at a meeting on the 29th of January 2008 to give feedback regarding a SGI Graduated Licensing program for novice motorcyclists (planned to be implemented ~ 2010).

As I'm sure many of you are aware, there has been a GDL program in place for regular novice drivers but there has been nothing in place for motorcyclists new to riding.

Please reply to this post before then so I can bring your suggestions and concerns before the committee next week.

Any feedback is welcome.

Regards;

Kevin

Go Graduated!

What does graduated motorcycle license get us? We already have a graduated program with the learners.


The only real difference between us and say Ontario is they REQUIRE the Motocycle Training Course to get past the graduated license where we do not.


IF anything, I think the MSF course should be compulsary.


But then again I never took it...

While I live in Edmonton, Alberta, I think there is a need for a graduated licensing program everywhere for motorcycles. Every year I see and hear about motorcycle accidents that could/should have been avoided, listen to complaints about excessive motorcycle noise, and a lot of dangerous riding. A frightening proportion of this comes from kids on sport bikes and middle-aged newbies (read "posers" ) who haven't the skills or good sense to ride sensibly and safely.

I would like to see a zero tolerance for newly licensed riders for alcohol (or other substance) consumption as well as for traffic infractions for the first year or two, followed by a limited tolerance for a similar period of time. I also believe that there should be a second written and road test to obtain a full license to complete the graduated licensing process.

While I would also like to see a graduated engine displacement requirement for new riders, I suspect that this would be difficult to get past the political approval process. There are too many kids on the road with little or no experience driving or riding, and who are apparently not mature enough to handle powerful bikes. I am 58 years old and have been riding since I was 16 and I am not sure I am mature enough yet to have what is essentially a racing bike under me. Testing the limits of the power and handling of the modern street bikes would be difficult to resist.

I am also concerned with the number of "baby boomers" who have the cash to get into motorcycling and buy as a first bike, a heavy and powerful bike that requires a high skill level to handle safely. A graduated licensing program with engine displacement limitations might save some middle-aged lives.

Richard Leask

PS - Loud pipes don't save lives, they just increase the negative attitude of the non-riding public towards motorcycles. Blasting a loud noise in the opposite direction of where about 90% of the hazards exists serves no useful purpose other than to enhance the ego of the idiot on the bike. A government initiative to pull modified bikes off the road until they bring their exhaust volume down to legal levels and a ban on selling aftermarket loud pipes would be a positive thing too.

Thanks for reading this little rant.

78oldwing wrote:

QUOTE:

I would like to see a zero tolerance for newly licensed riders for alcohol (or other substance) consumption as well as for traffic infractions for the first year or two, followed by a limited tolerance for a similar period of time. I also believe that there should be a second written and road test to obtain a full license to complete the graduated licensing process.

Although I agree to that in principal I had my 'learners' for 3 years before riding a bike for the first time. I then got my license using a friends bike but never had a bike of my own for a couple years after that. When I finally bought my first bike I had had my license for a few years. So any zero tolerence would not have affected me.

QUOTE:


While I would also like to see a graduated engine displacement requirement for new riders, I suspect that this would be difficult to get past the political approval process. There are too many kids on the road with little or no experience driving or riding, and who are apparently not mature enough to handle powerful bikes. I am 58 years old and have been riding since I was 16 and I am not sure I am mature enough yet to have what is essentially a racing bike under me. Testing the limits of the power and handling of the modern street bikes would be difficult to resist.


I am also concerned with the number of "baby boomers" who have the cash to get into motorcycling and buy as a first bike, a heavy and powerful bike that requires a high skill level to handle safely. A graduated licensing program with engine displacement limitations might save some middle-aged lives.

That displacement limitation makes no sense to me. 900cc cruser and a 900cc sport bike are in totally different worlds. As for the baby boomers... yes they're skills are quite low when they start...but I happen to know many Boomers who got into riding to tour. That is not effective if you are limited to a 650 for example.

QUOTE:

PS - Loud pipes don't save lives, they just increase the negative attitude of the non-riding public towards motorcycles. Blasting a loud noise in the opposite direction of where about 90% of the hazards exists serves no useful purpose other than to enhance the ego of the idiot on the bike. A government initiative to pull modified bikes off the road until they bring their exhaust volume down to legal levels and a ban on selling aftermarket loud pipes would be a positive thing too.

Thanks for reading this little rant.

Graduated licensing would have zero affect on loud pipes. I for one am not foolish enough to think that loud pipes save lives... but I do like the sound of em

Since this topic will be a contentious one, and Ontario is referenced, here are some links that might be useful.

Motorcycle & Moped Industry Council (links page) http://www.mmic.ca/newsite/content.asp?ContentId=1070

Ontario Graduated licensing http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/gradu/index.html

B,C, (ICBC) http://www.icbc.com/Licensing/lic_getlic_undglp.asp

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NTSA) statistics http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/809-360.pdf

One interesting bit of information. I recently read that the highest risk for having a serious accident while riding a motorcycle occurs usually in the first weeks of riding and then riders seem to become more cautious. There is another big spike in the accident rate in about the third year of riding. Apparently once riders get past the initial learning curve and develop basic safety and handling skills, there is a period of heightened caution. After a couple of years riders can become complacent and there is a spike in accidents again. Just food for thought.

The graduated licencing for motorcycles should have come before the one for autos IMO.
The one in the UK seems to be the smart way to go, a small bike for a time to get used to it etc.

The guy who jumps in for cruising and buys the 1/2 ton bike with no previous experience is as much of a hazard on the road as the kid who buys the latest (place lettering here)600 sport bike to learn on.
At the least they could raise my insurance rates, at the worse they could kill themselves or someone else.

I have had my learners for about 25 years now and no licence... ergo no road test.
I'll change that this year if I decide to buy another bike and risk the Saskatoon nutcases... err people that drive cars

So I guess I am for it

I'll try to respond to as many comments as I can without specifically naming them.

A graduated licence program in Saskatchewan would be a good thing. Specifically if it focuses on displacement restrictions. Granted, there is a difference between a 600cc sports bike and a 650cc cruiser, but most types of cruisers, regardless of engine size, are quite heavy thereby making them unsuitable for novice riders.

Our current system does not qualify as a "graduated" system because graduation is not a requirement. As stated by other members, many riders never actually bother taking the road test, yet can leagally ride 100hp+ motorcycles. This is a bad thing.


The "learners" licence currently utilized in Saskatchewan is not suited to the reality of motorcycling in the 21st century. As it stands, anyone can go to SGI, pass the 20 multiple-choice test, and legally ride a Hayabusa or a Kawasaki 1400. I personally know many motorcyclists who've ridden GXR 750s and the like for years with nothing but a learners license, and needless to say they crash pretty much on a monthly basis. This is simply wrong. At the very least, the current learners license must become invalid after 6-12 months after which a mandatory road test must be taken.

A learners license should restrict riders to, say, 500 cc's. This may seem low to some, but given the power to wieght ratio of current GSXR600s, CBR600s, etc., I think that this restriction is valid. Especially considering that a learners license restricts riders to roads under 80kmph anyway. A rider with a learners license on a GSXR600 wouldn't (or shouldn't) even get out of 2nd gear if he or she was following the rules (which many don't.) And where is the learning experience in that? (This is mostly in response to the comment about baby boomers getting into cruising, because legally with a learners, one cannot cruise!)

When I got my learners, I rode a Suzuki TS250 for a season before taking my road test, and around the city, that bike was plenty. The bike is geared low (my dad used it for dirt track racing before I put all the lights back on), so top speed was 80kmph anyway. I can't imagine why anyone with a learners would need much more than this when you're legally restricted to 80kmph anyway.

Atlas wrote:

QUOTE:
I can't imagine why anyone with a learners would need much more than this when you're legally restricted to 80kmph anyway.

Maybe you should update yourself with the current laws here.

A learner's license no longer restricts you to 80km/hr speedlimits (or speedlimit roads). The new requirement is within 100km of your address as stated on your license.


cc restrictions are dumb IMO. The whole "you can't handle large cc motorcycles cause you are a newbie" is a crock.

Anyone on a big displacement MC for the first time has a huge learning curve. New riders on say a 1100 v-star are not what is causing the bikes to go down and crash.

On a Saskatchewan single lane highway it is more dangerous riding a light 500 cc cruiser then it is on a 1500 v-twin.

And the fact that people ride illegally only with their learners is irrelevant seeing if any other graduated program came into force they would still be riding illegal.

I have nothing against a graduated license and a forced MSF course... I think its a good idea. But picking which bikes a person can or can not have? Think new drivers should be barred from full size trucks?

QUOTE:
A learner's license no longer restricts you to 80km/hr speedlimits (or speedlimit roads). The new requirement is within 100km of your address as stated on your license.

That's news to me. When I had my learners, that was the case. Still, this does little to invalidate my arguement.

QUOTE:
cc restrictions are dumb IMO. The whole "you can't handle large cc motorcycles cause you are a newbie" is a crock.

It's not a crock. Newbies cannot handle big bikes. Take any Joe off the street who's never ridden before and put him on a GSXR750 and see how far he gets before he's road-kill.

QUOTE:
Anyone on a big displacement MC for the first time has a huge learning curve. New riders on say a 1100 v-star are not what is causing the bikes to go down and crash.

Well, a "huge learning curve" is exactly the topic at hand. That is the point of this discussion. You just finished saying that "the whole 'you can't handle large cc motorcycles cause you are a newbie is a crock,'" then say that "anyone on a big displacement MC for the first time has a huge learning curve." You contradict yourself. Which is it? Either noobs can handle big bikes or they can't. I'm of the opinion that the majority of new bike riders cannot handle large displacement motorcycles, expecially since the power they produce has sharply risen in the past few years.

QUOTE:
On a Saskatchewan single lane highway it is more dangerous riding a light 500 cc cruiser then it is on a 1500 v-twin.

Really? What evidence do you have of this? Or at least, what is your logic behind this claim?

QUOTE:
And the fact that people ride illegally only with their learners is irrelevant seeing if any other graduated program came into force they would still be riding illegal.

I merely said that many people with the learners go over the speed limit that their licence restricts them to, but that was under the false assumption that they were still restricted to 80kmph, however I believe that we must assume that most riders are obeying the law.

I don't believe we should restrict what types of bike people should have. Given their ability, people can ride whatever they want, however the key word here is ability. Should people be able to operate machinery that they are physically and mentally unfit to operate therefore putting their own and other's lives at risk? I think not.

Making an analogy of restricting trucks doesn't really work here, because as anyone on this forum can tell you (and I'm sure that you know this from your own experience) the skill required to operate a motorcycle is far greater than that needed to operate a four-wheeled vehicle. The skill required to ride a 1400 Intruder is much greater than that needed to ride a Yamaha XT350. Whereas the difference required to drive a Ford Ranger as opposed to a F-350 is little to none.

Atlas wrote:

QUOTE:

It's not a crock. Newbies cannot handle big bikes. Take any Joe off the street who's never ridden before and put him on a GSXR750 and see how far he gets before he's road-kill.

Yes...the sport bikes are in a different category. I am strictly a cruiser guy. I think cruisers / sportbike displacements when talking about new riders is very apples to oranges.

QUOTE:

Well, a "huge learning curve" is exactly the topic at hand. That is the point of this discussion. You just finished saying that "the whole 'you can't handle large cc motorcycles cause you are a newbie is a crock,'" then say that "anyone on a big displacement MC for the first time has a huge learning curve." You contradict yourself. Which is it? Either noobs can handle big bikes or they can't. I'm of the opinion that the majority of new bike riders cannot handle large displacement motorcycles, expecially since the power they produce has sharply risen in the past few years.

Ya I was a little confusing. My point is that there is a learning curve for everyone (new rider or experienced small displacement rider) when hopping on a big bike. I have never heard of someone crashing a large displacement cruiser because they could not handle the power.

QUOTE:

Really? What evidence do you have of this? Or at least, what is your logic behind this claim?

Just experience. Small bikes get blown around on the highways...trucks passing you (or you passing trucks) is an excercise in "holy crap". It is hard to handle them in the wind as well. Also, if you were on say a GZ250 or a Rebel you'd have no safe passing speed if needed.

QUOTE:

Making an analogy of restricting trucks doesn't really work here, because as anyone on this forum can tell you (and I'm sure that you know this from your own experience) the skill required to operate a motorcycle is far greater than that needed to operate a four-wheeled vehicle. The skill required to ride a 1400 Intruder is much greater than that needed to ride a Yamaha XT350. Whereas the difference required to drive a Ford Ranger as opposed to a F-350 is little to none.

It doesn't take skill to ride a bike. Anyone can hop on a bike and go. It takes skill to safely operate a bike and not kill yourself or others. Same applies with driving. I used the truck example cause a couple years ago a 16 year old took out my back bumper in a parking lot because he lost control of the F250 he was driving. It was my estimation that accident would not have occured with a smaller car.


My main thing is under the current laws, I have not seen, or heard, that there are more accidents with new riders on larger CC cruisers then there are with new riders on lower cc cruisers. Given that, a cc restriction serves no purpose.

Especially cause years with a license does not dictate more experience.

That is why I think the issue should be education. Require people to learn how to ride safe.

oh...and ban all sport bikes

If it means lower premiums I am for it.

$ 800+ for a 2002 650 KLR is a joke for a rider that is 35 plus years old.

Tell them to address the issue of low disparity on rates between bike classes/sizes for less experienced riders first and they will solve their supposed safety issue (via the monetary route).

Or more simply put - If you want a fast bike you can have it (if you can pay for it) and after that let Darwin's laws take over.

QUOTE:
Yes...the sport bikes are in a different category. I am strictly a cruiser guy. I think cruisers / sportbike displacements when talking about new riders is very apples to oranges.

Agreed. So what can be done to rectify this? When speaking of learners licences we must take into account the fact that most new riders are probably younger males buying sportsbikes.

QUOTE:
Ya I was a little confusing. My point is that there is a learning curve for everyone (new rider or experienced small displacement rider) when hopping on a big bike. I have never heard of someone crashing a large displacement cruiser because they could not handle the power.

Fair enough, but I think that with big cruisers, the problem as you mentioned is not hp, but rather weight. And with a bigger engine comes more weight. Heavy bikes are far more difficult to handle than ligher bikes.

QUOTE:
It doesn't take skill to ride a bike. Anyone can hop on a bike and go. It takes skill to safely operate a bike and not kill yourself or others. Same applies with driving. I used the truck example cause a couple years ago a 16 year old took out my back bumper in a parking lot because he lost control of the F250 he was driving. It was my estimation that accident would not have occured with a smaller car.

I think you are contradicting yourself again. You said that it doesn't take skill to ride a bike, but it takes skill to ride one safely? Well, if you can't ride a bike safely then you simply shouldn't be riding. Am I right? Therefore it does take skill to ride a bike. That's what this is all about. Ensuring that those who want to ride motorcycles possess the necessary skills to do so.

I guess when I think about a learners licence and displacement restriction, I am mostly thinking about SQUIDS and base my opinions on that. I am tired of the looks I get when people learn that I ride motorcycles (or "murdercycles" as I've heard them called.) Granted, not all young sportsbike riders are SQUIDS, but there are a lot of them out there and I think restricting displacement for learners would help curb this trend. As for the cruisers, I just have to say that if the displacement restriction came into effect, then those who want to ride big bikes simply must prove they actually can ride big bikes. I don't think someone should be able to ride a huge 1500cc cruiser with a learners. If they want to ride large motorcycles, then they just need take the road test. Simple.

I agree that the bottom line is about education, but you have to crawl before you can walk. You must know algebra before you learn calculus. And so it is with learning to ride motorcycles. I don't think anyone's first experience riding a motorcycle should be on a large displacement cruiser. (I have nothing against them; I just don't think they are the proper learning tool.)

Mark: Darwin's law would be good except that in Canada we have public health care, so you and I are paying for every SQUID who breaks his neck!

Being a third generation biker with over 20 years of riding experience, and a person who actually has taken the Motorcycle Safety Course I think I have a few opinions here...

a.) There should be displacement regulations for new riders with new licenses for each category of cc. Start at 250's, then 500's, 750's, then 1000 and up...

b.) While I do agree that comparing sport bikes to cruisers are like apples and oranges, maybe wheel horsepower should be a factor. Just bouncing that out.

c.) Sport bikes should be an upper class licensing issue. Go up in class on cruisers first due to their lower revs and then graduate to sport bikes. We all know sport bikes are much more high performance due to their higher revs.

d.) Motorcycle riding does indeed take skill to stay alive and comparing driving a 4 wheeled vehicle to motorcycle riding is like comparing apples and oranges. If you crash with a 4 wheeled vehicle you probably will walk away. Anyone who has crashed their bike knows this is not the case.

Having said that:

e.) Motorcycle Safety Courses should be Mandatory. I rode for years on dirt, on sport bikes and on cruisers thinking I had the skills until I took the course with my wife and discovered all kinds of "skills" (read bad habits) that I thought I had that could of got me killed. Anyone who says that motorcycle riding does not take more skill than driving a car is not in the real world. Take a motorcycle course and discover what skills you really have and you will find you are less skilled than you know.

f.) There is a REASON Motorcycle Safety Courses get you to ride 125cc bikes up to 250cc bikes. You get in less trouble with them , less quickly and can manage that trouble faster. While sport bikes have more horsepower, cruisers are heavier. Bigger the bike, more the weight. More the weight, the more trouble you can get into. Try doing some of the skills challenges on a big cruiser and you will see very quickly what I am talking about. The gyroscopic physics do change with a bigger bike and you are less able to muscle it around when you get into trouble.

g.) I really don't buy the smaller bike on the highway being less safe. I have rode all kinds of motorcycles and all cc's. If wind and semis are scaring you, try slowing down and pulling over to the right side of the lane. (They teach you that at the Motorcycle Safety Course

Further mudding the waters LOL!

Moose

Moose,

Good call on everything. I too thought about HP restrictions, but there are far too many ways to modify bikes and change HP. What would the cops do if you got pulled over? Give you a Dyno test!?